Comments on: Shifts in the Class Identity of English Soccer http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/ Tue, 09 Mar 2010 14:18:31 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: marc http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/comment-page-1/#comment-13673 marc Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:45:33 +0000 http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/#comment-13673 I agree chris c paul, in addition would add that a large part of the crowd at Emirates appear to be older well off working classes. When I used to stand on Highbury North Bank in mid eighties the crowd was much much youngerand tickets were £3.50. While the crowds are gentrified the change is more one of wealth and age rather than class. Go to see England Rugby team at Twickenham to experience a middle class crowd. I agree chris c paul, in addition would add that a large part of the crowd at Emirates appear to be older well off working classes. When I used to stand on Highbury North Bank in mid eighties the crowd was much much youngerand tickets were £3.50. While the crowds are gentrified the change is more one of wealth and age rather than class. Go to see England Rugby team at Twickenham to experience a middle class crowd.

]]> By: Yves http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/comment-page-1/#comment-8082 Yves Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:29:20 +0000 http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/#comment-8082 I am a litle late to the party, but here are my thoughts. The profile of the typical football fan depends upon the country we are talking about. The EPL is now the richest in the wold, with the most corporate revenues and the highest ticket prices. Also, going to Emirates staduim ot to Old Trafford is now very chic. In my country, France, football is still attended primarily by factory workers because the prices are kept low due to the partnership between clubs and municipalities. Today, France only has 1 truly rich club, Lyon. But Lyon annual revenues are only a third of those of Man. United or Arsenal. In Latin countries such as Spain, Italy and France, the fans are still very much from the lower strata of the society. Traditionally, in France, football has been a great equalizer sport; a way for immigrants to integrate in the French society. It is incredible how many son's of immigrants have succeeded in France's football: Platini, Zidane, Lopez, Kopa, Revelli, Fernandez, Pires, Djorkaeff, Boghosian, Viera, Makelele... Even our next generation is going to be led by son's of immigrants like Benzema, Benarfa, Nasri... The son's of the middle class have options. They can go to school and earn a decent living working in an office building. The poor kids from immigrant backgrounds want to get their families out of poverty as soon as possible. If they have the talent for football, they will take the incredible risk of turning pro at 16th years old and forgo school altogether. The incredible success of football worldwide, has to do with the fact that anybody can play it. You need no fancy equipment, you have a choice of 11 different positions requiring various skills, you can be tall or short, it does not matter much (except for goalies). Because we can all play, we can also all appreciate the brilliance of the truly great player. I remember last year WC, at my house, during France-Brazil, people had tears in their eyes over Zidane's brilliance. Recently, I travelled to Argentina on business. Upon my arrival, the company driver picked me up and asked which country I was from; I responded "I was from France". He just said "Si, si Zizou". It's for these moments that I love football. (sorry is I made some English errors) I am a litle late to the party, but here are my thoughts. The profile of the typical football fan depends upon the country we are talking about. The EPL is now the richest in the wold, with the most corporate revenues and the highest ticket prices. Also, going to Emirates staduim ot to Old Trafford is now very chic. In my country, France, football is still attended primarily by factory workers because the prices are kept low due to the partnership between clubs and municipalities. Today, France only has 1 truly rich club, Lyon. But Lyon annual revenues are only a third of those of Man. United or Arsenal. In Latin countries such as Spain, Italy and France, the fans are still very much from the lower strata of the society. Traditionally, in France, football has been a great equalizer sport; a way for immigrants to integrate in the French society. It is incredible how many son’s of immigrants have succeeded in France’s football: Platini, Zidane, Lopez, Kopa, Revelli, Fernandez, Pires, Djorkaeff, Boghosian, Viera, Makelele… Even our next generation is going to be led by son’s of immigrants like Benzema, Benarfa, Nasri… The son’s of the middle class have options. They can go to school and earn a decent living working in an office building. The poor kids from immigrant backgrounds want to get their families out of poverty as soon as possible. If they have the talent for football, they will take the incredible risk of turning pro at 16th years old and forgo school altogether. The incredible success of football worldwide, has to do with the fact that anybody can play it. You need no fancy equipment, you have a choice of 11 different positions requiring various skills, you can be tall or short, it does not matter much (except for goalies). Because we can all play, we can also all appreciate the brilliance of the truly great player. I remember last year WC, at my house, during France-Brazil, people had tears in their eyes over Zidane’s brilliance. Recently, I travelled to Argentina on business. Upon my arrival, the company driver picked me up and asked which country I was from; I responded “I was from France”. He just said “Si, si Zizou”. It’s for these moments that I love football.

(sorry is I made some English errors)

]]> By: chris c paul http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/comment-page-1/#comment-5251 chris c paul Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:28:18 +0000 http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/#comment-5251 I think what it actually means to be working class needs to be clarified. Following strictly marxist lines the majority of football fans in England, like the majority of the British, are actually working class. In as much as they need to work for a living to survive, and own a mximum of one property, if any. However, many of these people will identify themselves as middle class, because they have a niceish car, work in an office, and maybe eat prawn sanwiches (or even worse, bagettes). Lumpenproles they are not. Educated they are. But working class they/we are. The proletariat is recruited from all stratas of society. The changing nature of western economies, with the commodities and primary resources sucked up from the devloping world rather than sourced at home, change the face of capitalism, less people get dirty and sweaty while making the cogs go round than they did in the past. But just because you don't work down a mine you don't cease to be a worker. In this respect the fans are stil working class, but the biggest difference now, compared to before, is that many fans harbour more middle class, bourgeoise, aspirations. And are willing to pay more for a season ticket, or Sky Sports +, in evidence of this. I think what it actually means to be working class needs to be clarified. Following strictly marxist lines the majority of football fans in England, like the majority of the British, are actually working class. In as much as they need to work for a living to survive, and own a mximum of one property, if any. However, many of these people will identify themselves as middle class, because they have a niceish car, work in an office, and maybe eat prawn sanwiches (or even worse, bagettes). Lumpenproles they are not. Educated they are. But working class they/we are. The proletariat is recruited from all stratas of society. The changing nature of western economies, with the commodities and primary resources sucked up from the devloping world rather than sourced at home, change the face of capitalism, less people get dirty and sweaty while making the cogs go round than they did in the past. But just because you don’t work down a mine you don’t cease to be a worker.

In this respect the fans are stil working class, but the biggest difference now, compared to before, is that many fans harbour more middle class, bourgeoise, aspirations. And are willing to pay more for a season ticket, or Sky Sports +, in evidence of this.

]]> By: Saurabh http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/comment-page-1/#comment-4774 Saurabh Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:24:45 +0000 http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/#comment-4774 Great post. I think the changing class character of English football is also emblematic of the larger trend of entertainment sector falling prey to monopoly business and pricing out of the masses. An interesting parallel is the rise of multiplex cinemas in South Asia. Exclusive and exorbitantly priced theatres are replacing widely accessed cinema halls and the working class and lower middle class are being excluded from the previously popular medium of entertainment. It is the inherent consequence of commercialising the game. Commerce responds only to consumers with money, not to fans with passion for a game. Great post. I think the changing class character of English football is also emblematic of the larger trend of entertainment sector falling prey to monopoly business and pricing out of the masses.

An interesting parallel is the rise of multiplex cinemas in South Asia. Exclusive and exorbitantly priced theatres are replacing widely accessed cinema halls and the working class and lower middle class are being excluded from the previously popular medium of entertainment.

It is the inherent consequence of commercialising the game. Commerce responds only to consumers with money, not to fans with passion for a game.

]]> By: David http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/comment-page-1/#comment-4731 David Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:47:34 +0000 http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/#comment-4731 I really appreciate the discussion this post has brought about. I'm sorry that my studies don't allow me as much time to respond to all the comments, but I'm thankful for the time y'all put into your comments. A few points: Alex - I agree that it's an age divide. David Conn had a <a href="http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,2028161,00.html" rel="nofollow">piece in the Guardian</a> making exactly the same point. I agree with several people who say that clubs don't care as much these days about getting fans to stadiums because they make so much money from TV deals (both in the UK and, increasingly importantly, abroad). I think a lot of people's frustration in England with the way the game has changed is due to the fact that, historically, there is a stronger tradition of going to live games there than in other places. Perhaps due to the small size and ease with which people can go to away games (I know the Guardian's Sid Lowe has said that Spanish fans rarely go to away games), English fans have historically been used to attending games. In many ways, that <i>is</i> being a fan. Coming from such a huge country, I am not used to being able to attend games unless they happen to take place close to where I live (which, growing up in Ohio, was rare). I think that, despite the short-sighted and misguided views of clubs to raise ticket prices and make it unaffordable for so many to attend matches, there remains a high level of support among nearly all classes in England that hasn't existed previously. But then, I'm saying that from thousands of miles away and so I'm glad to have the opinions of those of you closer to the phenomenon itself. I really appreciate the discussion this post has brought about. I’m sorry that my studies don’t allow me as much time to respond to all the comments, but I’m thankful for the time y’all put into your comments.

A few points:

Alex – I agree that it’s an age divide. David Conn had a piece in the Guardian making exactly the same point.

I agree with several people who say that clubs don’t care as much these days about getting fans to stadiums because they make so much money from TV deals (both in the UK and, increasingly importantly, abroad). I think a lot of people’s frustration in England with the way the game has changed is due to the fact that, historically, there is a stronger tradition of going to live games there than in other places. Perhaps due to the small size and ease with which people can go to away games (I know the Guardian’s Sid Lowe has said that Spanish fans rarely go to away games), English fans have historically been used to attending games. In many ways, that is being a fan. Coming from such a huge country, I am not used to being able to attend games unless they happen to take place close to where I live (which, growing up in Ohio, was rare). I think that, despite the short-sighted and misguided views of clubs to raise ticket prices and make it unaffordable for so many to attend matches, there remains a high level of support among nearly all classes in England that hasn’t existed previously. But then, I’m saying that from thousands of miles away and so I’m glad to have the opinions of those of you closer to the phenomenon itself.

]]> By: Alex http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/comment-page-1/#comment-4727 Alex Thu, 01 Nov 2007 23:20:02 +0000 http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/#comment-4727 It's not a class divide anymore, it's an age divide. I remember reading that the average Premier League fan is in their 40s now. People of my age, in their teens and twenties probably follow the game in bigger numbers than before the equivilent age range 20 years ago. The difference is that we watch on TV because the prices are too high. Which means a whole generation isn't getting into the habit of going to games which, I think, spells problems for the future. It’s not a class divide anymore, it’s an age divide. I remember reading that the average Premier League fan is in their 40s now.

People of my age, in their teens and twenties probably follow the game in bigger numbers than before the equivilent age range 20 years ago. The difference is that we watch on TV because the prices are too high. Which means a whole generation isn’t getting into the habit of going to games which, I think, spells problems for the future.

]]> By: dougie brimson http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/comment-page-1/#comment-4622 dougie brimson Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:34:28 +0000 http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/#comment-4622 The fact that the MLS clubs are having to develop a fan base rather than deal with one they already have is a great point Shyler. One not many people think about when talking about football in the States. The fact that the MLS clubs are having to develop a fan base rather than deal with one they already have is a great point Shyler.

One not many people think about when talking about football in the States.

]]> By: Schuyler http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/comment-page-1/#comment-4602 Schuyler Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:41:38 +0000 http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/#comment-4602 Good piece Dave. While I'm a reader from the US and a supporter of DC United, the most decorated club in MLS, I have thought some about the different historical birth of English clubs and the franchise nature of MLS clubs. As some of your other posts indicate it was not rare that working class groups, through their employers, would start teams, field them and support them. In the US teams are started by an investor who starts from scratch, or tries to draw the fans from Latin America into US soccer. Most marketing campaigns, for DC United at least, don't show up in places I'm in, as a white American man, but I see them more in Spanish or focused at families (the classic 4 tickets, 4 personal pizzas and 4 drinks). I've also heard that 1/3 of DC tickets are free because they want to draw fans in. In other words the teams in MLS have to create a fan base instead of growing out of a community capable of supporting a club. Thought I'd put this out there and see what you/others think. Good piece Dave. While I’m a reader from the US and a supporter of DC United, the most decorated club in MLS, I have thought some about the different historical birth of English clubs and the franchise nature of MLS clubs. As some of your other posts indicate it was not rare that working class groups, through their employers, would start teams, field them and support them. In the US teams are started by an investor who starts from scratch, or tries to draw the fans from Latin America into US soccer. Most marketing campaigns, for DC United at least, don’t show up in places I’m in, as a white American man, but I see them more in Spanish or focused at families (the classic 4 tickets, 4 personal pizzas and 4 drinks). I’ve also heard that 1/3 of DC tickets are free because they want to draw fans in. In other words the teams in MLS have to create a fan base instead of growing out of a community capable of supporting a club. Thought I’d put this out there and see what you/others think.

]]> By: dougie brimson http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/comment-page-1/#comment-4536 dougie brimson Mon, 29 Oct 2007 17:24:11 +0000 http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/#comment-4536 Interesting debate but the idea of English clubs taking anything but a short term view is as laughable as them giving any thought to what the traditional fan base actully needs or wants. It always has been. Hence, we have a Premiership and a national stadium which is largely devoid of any real match day atmosphere in spite of the fact that this remains a central selling point for the English game. Yet when it all goes wrong, as it inevitably will when the prawn sandwich brigade discover something else and the game becomes less fashionable, the traditional fan is exactly who the game will go running to cap in hand. Interesting debate but the idea of English clubs taking anything but a short term view is as laughable as them giving any thought to what the traditional fan base actully needs or wants. It always has been.

Hence, we have a Premiership and a national stadium which is largely devoid of any real match day atmosphere in spite of the fact that this remains a central selling point for the English game.

Yet when it all goes wrong, as it inevitably will when the prawn sandwich brigade discover something else and the game becomes less fashionable, the traditional fan is exactly who the game will go running to cap in hand.

]]> By: Jakarta Casual http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/comment-page-1/#comment-4507 Jakarta Casual Mon, 29 Oct 2007 02:28:02 +0000 http://cultureofsoccer.com/2007/10/28/shifts-in-the-class-identity-of-english-soccer/#comment-4507 this is a topic i've covered a bit recently but all the time there are thousands queuing for season tickets and match tickets it makes no economic sense for clubs to do anything however while the new breed may have the resources needed to be a 'fan' these days they lack the roots and traditions that come from generations following the same club. when the media finds something else that interests them they will take many of the new breed with them and the clubs will come a calling on those they have alienated football isnt, or shouldn t, just be about ponds, shillings and pence. it s about traditions, values, soul, loyalty... http://jakartacasual.blogspot.com/2007/10/denton-edelman-and-wagon-wheels.html this is a topic i’ve covered a bit recently but all the time there are thousands queuing for season tickets and match tickets it makes no economic sense for clubs to do anything

however while the new breed may have the resources needed to be a ‘fan’ these days they lack the roots and traditions that come from generations following the same club. when the media finds something else that interests them they will take many of the new breed with them and the clubs will come a calling on those they have alienated

football isnt, or shouldn t, just be about ponds, shillings and pence. it s about traditions, values, soul, loyalty…

http://jakartacasual.blogspot.com/2007/10/denton-edelman-and-wagon-wheels.html

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